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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Even if cut the war budget substantially, any "savings" (toss out the usual congressional accounting tricks and we would still be in the hole big time for the long term) should go to, oh, about a million other things before we ever got to this project. Truly, the idea that people should pay taxes in part to fund an archive of Grateful Dead stuff is purely ludicrous.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 4:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I think most people have no clue what their taxes fund, and the general reaction to being told what their taxes fund is outrage. But try eliminating most of those same things, and the same people are even more outraged.

Seriously, what's been so fascinating to me in this thread is that to a lot of folks, it was apparently news that taxes fund things like libraries, art exhibits, museums, etc. I'm sure quite a few people think this was Barack Obama's idea.

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Dec 23, 2010 1:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

The US Govt has been funding PBS/NPR since the late 60s. National Endownment for the Arts is not a new idea either. Obama musta been 10-12 years old when this began; so we can't blame it on him alone.

Maybe Coburn is really pissed off about those DEAD Obama campaign fundraiser concerts in 2008?

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Poster: deadhead53 Date: Dec 22, 2010 5:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I respectfully disagree with you ring, I know what our taxes fund and I don't think it should go to things like this, I love the dead but to fund this and other stupid projects like keeping the manure smell down in the midwest (1st stimulus bill along with other stupid things) makes people really irritated especially with an economy now. I am against federally funding many things and I don't make this specific to Obama, every President since Teddy Roosevelt have been doing this. My question is when does it stop? How long do we do this until we can't fund it anymore because of waste with these projects. If you could guarantee that you could fund these with strict budgets and strict oversight, you might get me to change but it is getting out of control and when does it stop? Have a good night all!

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 6:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

>to fund this and other stupid projects like keeping the manure smell down in the midwest

I musta missed that ... where my husband's family comes from - Lebanon County, PA - man, we could have used some of that money to keep the manure smell down :) brilliant idea.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 23, 2010 7:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I don't know about "most people", but I'm pretty aware of the general scope of government spending, though I don't think any single individual could give you an itemized list.

The role of the federal government in subsidizing ANY art when we are sinking deeper into debt by the day just to the keep the lights on and heater running is one debate, and I think that's where your responses seem to be focused. But as to my response to the original post, that question was whether Coburn is correct in identifying the use of tax dollars to fund a digital archive for the GD as a waste of money. I maintain that he absolutely is, and have yet to hear any compelling argument as to why he isn't. If someone wants to make a case that creating a digital archive for a rock band that does fairly well for itself warrants worsening the country's abysmal financial situation- even by a few dollars - I'm all ears.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 23, 2010 8:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

>The role of the federal government in subsidizing ANY art when we are sinking deeper into debt by the day just to the keep the lights on and heater running

We aren't sinking into debt to keep the lights and heater on, but to fight two wars. There'd be no issue keeping the lights on if we'd never decided to bomb a country that never did anything to us. To blame arts spending instead is senseless; it's like one grain of sand in the Sahara Desert.

>If someone wants to make a case that creating a digital archive for a rock band that does fairly well for itself warrants worsening the country's abysmal financial situation- even by a few dollars - I'm all ears.

It is not "for the band," that's completely irrelevant. The band doesn't benefit in any way. The government isn't giving the Grateful Dead money, for heaven's sake, they're funding an archive. Archives are for the public, and for scholars, and for posterity. It hardly requires me to make a case for government funding of the arts and scholarship, I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Dec 23, 2010 8:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

AMEN! not to mention tax cuts aimed at the the wealthiest 1% !!

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 23, 2010 9:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

That too. Revoke those tax cuts and fund hundreds of archives.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 23, 2010 9:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

"There'd be no issue keeping the lights on if we'd never decided to bomb a country that never did anything to us"

That's simply absurd. Even when we were carrying a "surplus" for brief stretch in the 90s, it was just creative accounting. This country's issues with borrowing and spending money it doesn't have predate by decades any of our recent military excursions. Our recent wars have nothing to do with this topic (I'd maintain this would be a clear waste of tax dollars no matter what our fiscal situation, but that too is a different discussion). To present the situation as a choice between a war or a GD archive is a false scenario. As far as it being "for" the Grateful Dead, it is "for" the collection of Grateful Dead material.

You keep veering off into anti-war rants, but you have yet to present a compelling argument as to why federal tax dollars should be spent on a digital archive of GRATEFUL DEAD stuff.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 23, 2010 11:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I guess I just see it as self-evident. It's the same reason the government subsidizes education, scholarly and medical research, the arts, libraries, museums, and cultural institutions. (Human betterment.) You surely don't need me to list the reasons for all this? I realize there are people who think there's no legitimate rationale for a government doing anything other than maintaining a military; clearly I think the government has quite a few other responsibilities.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 23, 2010 11:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

It might be a pretty obvious thing to say, but isn't a "government of the people, by the people, for the people" pretty much obligated to carry out its duties in a way that best serves the physical and mental well being of said people?

Just saying, I think you're on the side of the angels on this one, D.

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Poster: deadhead53 Date: Dec 23, 2010 11:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I think my last post was out of frustration over many issues, I do not think this should be funded by the government, Gov should help fund education, roads, military and many other important services. I just think we fund way to many things that we don't need to. As this government both dems and repubs put us deeper and deeper into debt when does it end. Read up on Rome and how they collapsed, very similar!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All and to all a good night!

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 23, 2010 11:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I was just thinking we needed a European perspective here; this "government get outta my life" thing is peculiarly American, no? In my experience, Europeans are usually shaking their heads in confusion when Americans have these ridiculous conversations.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 23, 2010 11:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

i wish I could say that "government get outta my life" was purely part of your political life, but, by and large, it's a major policy strand of our current government's thinking as they seek to devolve responsibility from central government to local interest groups. (The 'Big Society' they laughingly call it.) Really makes you wonder why anybody would want to vote for a party that seeks to distance themselves from the blame for pretty much everything.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Dec 23, 2010 1:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

In America today, it's Glenn Beck's way, or the highway. My era is over. I'm a relic. Social and environmental justice are taboo in the 21st century. It's a new America here. I'm thinking same as you are.

You're an art-terrorist. We're related since I'm a former soundman-terrorist and music-loving communist. I'm an anarchist Net Neutrality-terrorist, a progressive-peace-terrorist, a taper-terrorist, hippie-terrorist, and I'm a Greenpeace-loving-eco-terrorist same as Jerry. I was born in 1951 when Joseph McCarthy wasn't looking.

The Internet Archive is a bunch of digital librarian-terrorists. They are hosting my vintage Americana tape recordings. They're hosting a WikiLeaks collection. They're hosting my peace and reconciliation essay. The Archive-terrorists are in a conspiracy with everyone here on these Forums since they are hosting The Grateful Dead tape collection. We're terrorists now because we're associating with them.

Obama Meets Privately With the Dead - March 30, 2009.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 23, 2010 8:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I don't know about terrorist, but I'm definitely something of a relic. Not trying to get people riled up, honestly, but I've slowly gleaned over the months here that lots of deadheads aren't radicals or peaceniks or lefty liberals like I thought we all were.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 23, 2010 5:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

You keep trying to expand this into something more than what it is. To me, the only thing "self evident" is that it is ridiculous to spend taxpayer money on a digital archive for the Grateful Dead, or any other rock band. Hell, maybe MORE so than any other rock band. Few performers in history have been as exhaustively chronicled as the GD, and almost all of the legwork has been done by the fans themselves. We're not talking about the library of congress capturing ghostly delta blues here. The idea that the Dead's legacy is in need of further chronicling paid for by the government less it be lost is preposterous. It's already been preserved. Again: wasteful.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 23, 2010 8:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

>To me, the only thing "self evident" is that it is ridiculous to spend taxpayer money on a digital archive for the Grateful Dead, or any other rock band.

It isn't "for the Grateful Dead." This is like saying, the government shouldn't fund libraries because the authors of the books make money selling their books. The tax money that supports libraries doesn't go to the authors of the books, it goes to the patrons, i.e., it is for the public.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 23, 2010 8:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Holy fuck. The whole point of the thread is that Coburn tagged a GD archive project as wasteful (I maintain that he is correct; you want to soapbox about war and public libraries). The project isn't archiving Laurie Anderson or Rush Limbaugh or Roky Erikson or Ron Jeremy, so cut the semantic bullshit about "for". You seem like a reasonably bright guy. It shouldn't be this hard for you, unless you've just determined you can't hold the line for your position.

To recap:

"The UCSC Grateful Dead Archive, announced in 2008, is an extensive collection of thousands of pictures, documents and pieces of memorabilia. The archive also contains band member journals, paraphernalia related to the band's extensive social network of devoted fans and the group's highly unusual and successful business ventures."

Really, clouding your retreat behind a cloud of rhetoric about larger issues seems like a rather weak tactic. I implore you to offer an argument in defense of THIS PROJECT receiving taxpayer money, which is essentially duplicating work that has already been done in the private sector, or concede that it is a textbook example of waste.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 24, 2010 4:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I'm a gal not a guy, but no matter. Maybe we should call this off for now, owing to the holiday spirit? :) I do think those larger issues are all relevant, and I guess I thought defending the value of *this* project (as opposed to Rush Limbaugh etc.) was not necessary on a Grateful Dead forum! Maybe you don't understand the full scope of what they're doing? They're not archiving the music - it doesn't duplicate what is already here on this web site. it's an archive of documents and cultural artifacts, to preserve them for future generations, and for scholarship. It's just like a museum, only digital. Many museums will begin this process (digitizing whatever they've got that can be digitized). Art museums, historical societies etc. will all do this, slowly but surely - as funds are available, whether through private donations or government grants. *What* the materials are isn't really the point though I assumed the value of Grateful Dead materials in the larger culture was taken for granted here (the value of preserving and documenting this culture for future generations). The government has always done this in a big way. We can certainly disagree, but it's not a new argument to suggest this is a good thing for governments to be involved in.

Please no hard feelings, I just like arguing, but I can call it off for the holidays. Have a happy one :)

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 24, 2010 6:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Just for the record, I fully understand what the project entails. What I am waiting for is for someone to articulate WHY making a digital catalog of all this stuff is SO critical as to warrant public funding (at any time, really, but especially now). There must be, literally, millions of data points on the Grateful Dead already accessible to the general public in libraries (which you've mentioned) and on the internet: photographs, artwork, interviews, concerts, document scans, film footage...Do we really need to subsidize a fresh effort to collect this stuff?

That said, I do apologize if I got a tad prickly during this thread(and about the gender assumption). There was really no need, and it was certainly nothing personal. Funny thing is, I accused you of soapboxing, when in reality I have a bit of a problem staying off of my own. All the best, anI hope you enjoy the Holiday Season to the fullest!

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 27, 2010 8:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Peace :) maybe we can resume after the holidays ... happy new year!

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Poster: NorthStarDead Date: Dec 29, 2010 5:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I am late for supper on this thread but regardless
of your views on politics, who cares?
What a senator or any one says or thinks.
Don't let it ruin your day.